Monday, January 5, 2009

uDig IRC logs Monday 5th of January

Chat about the upcoming udig sprint.


Minutes:

moovida: hi Jody
moovida: ho wis the course going?
jgarnett: it is going okay
jgarnett: I was sad when the "custom application" tutorial
jgarnett: did not work for the students today
moovida: I can imagine
jgarnett: I am worried I screwed up something in the SDK; although as usual with these things it works on my box
jgarnett: however they were able to make their app
jgarnett: they just were not able to "Export" it
moovida: which indeed is an important step :)
moovida: had often problems with udig also
moovida: it is always a pain
moovida: I was never able to find a clean solution
moovida: just hoped in Jesse's headless build
moovida: That is also the reason we do not have a Linux and Mac udig build
jgarnett: hello again; #geotools channel got me; I am trying to remember the udig meeting time (heh like we ever managed to attend)
moovida: :D
jgarnett: moovida I do manage to build and release okay myself; I have more luck doing it from eclipse then from jesse's build system
jgarnett: so yeah about the code sprint; I am going to be all fired up and keen after this week
jgarnett: we need to make a release so the public can see all the cool stuff in 1.2
jgarnett: but we need a sprint to get everything ship shape
jgarnett: so far the only really sad thing for me is the database connection wizards
moovida: I absolutely agree
jgarnett: what did you think of the idea of going through walkthrough 1 and walkthrough 2
moovida: we need to be more organised
jgarnett: as the "goal" for the code sprint.
moovida: it is ok for me, but only if we add some things to the walkthrough
jgarnett: hrm; so for organized it is probably more important to *get started organizing* now; then to have the best plan off the top
jgarnett: I am happy to add more stuff to the walkthrough if needed; what did you have in mind? (and do you mind if we post these logs - as the easiest way for us to start getting organized?)
moovida: no problem at all
moovida: we need to add small things, more as tricks
moovida: example: export the shapefile reprojected
moovida: drag a set of files into catalog or map
moovida: lots of thingsa got broken lately also on 1.1
moovida: I am a bit amazed by that
jgarnett: how do you mean? Or rather I have not noticed much on uDig 1.1 (because I have not been running it)
jgarnett: I did see one nasty bug today during the course; some of the WMS legend graphics were making their request in the display thread ... making the applicaiton "lock up" while they waited.
jgarnett: um with respect to problems on 1.1.1 release; jesse pushed very hard to make 1.1.0 happen and some of his fixes may of been missed as he brought them back to the 1.1.x branch...
jgarnett: ... I notice a few fixes from the 1.1.x series missing from trunk; that is the kind of stuff I expect to catch during the code sprint.
jgarnett: so back to getting organized ...
moovida: Jody the problem is
jgarnett: I would like to make sure we have a wiki page set up with the start of some tasks; that will involve someone going through walkthrough 1 and marking down what does not work on a page
moovida: that you guys see only technical problems related to WMS WFS and strange stuff
jgarnett: and then we can do the same for walkthrough 2
moovida: but what is going down lately is the usability of udig
jgarnett: (some of the things you mentioned like exporting in different projections is covered in there; as a little note in the margin)
moovida: which is very important for generic community use
moovida: you agree with me?
jgarnett: I have noticed problems with usability as well; mostly around right clicking and getting too many operations
moovida: It is like that time I agreed to jump on trunk for foss4g
jgarnett: but perhaps you have something else in mind?
moovida: you guys never use udig as such
moovida: you always use the pieces
moovida: so a lot of bugs that are around also on1.1 are overseen
moovida: and the community complains
moovida: That is why I wanted the spriont
moovida: so we all can do it different for once
moovida: as real users
moovida: yes, usability
moovida: means drag 4 maps and only one is loaded
jgarnett: okay I understand; however we do have to fix the functionality up as well
moovida: export a shapefile and the prj is not created
moovida: and so on
moovida: I agree, but that has always been first in line
jgarnett: I am trying to figure out if I know about any of those bugs moovida
jgarnett: are they new? I cannot imagine a shapefile being exported with out the prj file
-->| silli (n=chatzill@94.161.129.216) has joined #udig
jgarnett: hrm
moovida: the bug got into the game at some point and the got fixed by Jesse
moovida: but there are other things
jgarnett: moovida perhaps we can compromise; I am worried about doing a sprint on useability as it is such an "open ended" target
jgarnett: can you think of a way we can make it specific?
moovida: I think the effort for the usability issues is not so big
jgarnett: for a successful code sprint we need a goal that can be accomplished; and I would like us to accomplish something and feel happy - and be willing to do this again in the future :-)
moovida: absolutely
moovida: I think we should really start to set up a ;ist of bugs we want to have fixed
moovida: and then talk about that
moovida: decide about those together
jgarnett: some of the usibility problems I face I fear are largish - I have a short list on the ideas page; where I have mock user interfaces made up etc..
moovida: but than stick to those
jgarnett: some of them are *so* easy; and I just have not had the time.
jgarnett: hrm
jgarnett: fixing bugs is not going to cut it for me
moovida: you mean new features or fixes
moovida: ?
moovida: what do you mean
moovida: what would you want to do?
jgarnett: sorry; making a list of bugs for the code sprint is not really going to work for me; I actually need the walkthroughs to work if we are to have something we can show the public.
jgarnett: I would settle for walkthrough 1 if I have to.
moovida: the walkthourgh is ok for me, but it is not the way users do things
jgarnett: aside: here is an example of what I am talking about http://udig.refractions.net/confluence/display/HACK/Temporal+Support+with+a+Navigation+View
moovida: it is a way to show udig
jgarnett: http://udig.refractions.net/confluence/display/HACK/GeoResource+Property+Page+Proposal
moovida: I see what you mean Jody
jgarnett: interesting; walkthrough 1 is the way users do things for me
moovida: but I think at that point udig needs to stop and stableize
jgarnett: if not I would love your help fixing walkthough 1
moovida: walkthrough is the way new users do things to see udig
jgarnett: I belive what you mean is at *this* point we need to stop and stablize
moovida: experienced users do it their own way
moovida: and then the prblems come
jgarnett: okay; I would love to know the experienced way to do things
moovida: yes that==this
jgarnett: and I would love to document it in the TASKS section of online help
jgarnett: indeed if you put a tag on the TASKS pages that captured the experienced way to do things
jgarnett: I would be totally up for that as a code sprint
jgarnett: (excited - this is a good idea: a) I can learn how you do things b) we can document it for others c) we can make sure it works smoothly for you)
moovida: we can setup a few things to do real world tasks
moovida: some advanced analysis
moovida: that is ok
moovida: but I am not sure about the way we see the need for the sprint
moovida: is the same
jgarnett: okay; as an example this is what I mean by a tasks page: http://udig.refractions.net/confluence/display/EN/Adding+a+column+to+a+shapefile
moovida: I think udig needs a bugfix sprint
moovida: you see it as an add new things
moovida: right?
jgarnett: we see it the same way
jgarnett: we need a bug fix sprint so udig is stable; my definition of stable is when walkthrough 1 and walkthrough 2 work
moovida: ok, but then lets call it: when *at least* the walkthorughs work
jgarnett: and I think we also need some work on usability (like those ideas pages I showed earlier - I am not touching new features until udig trunk is stable)
silli: I think udig needs to be usable for normal work before
moovida: hi Silvia
jgarnett: agreed; there is more to life then walkthrough 1 and 2
silli: ciao moovida, jody
moovida: we made courses for engineers with udig and we have a list of things
jgarnett: silli and moovida: I will need your help knowing what normal work looks like - as pointed out above
silli: ok this is the missing
silli: you develop and we use udig
* moovida not that much, but...
silli: and in my opinion there are problems related to small bugs that seem to be solved one time
silli: and in the next release you find them again
silli: there are some problems in feature editing
silli: and reloading projects
moovida: yes, I agree, we need a better quality assurance
jgarnett: hrm
silli: these are all problems that a user feels greater that as you feel
moovida: perhaps you guys, that are more in the software business
jgarnett: both of those bugs are something we could write test cases for; so they do not happy each time we release
moovida: could tell what has to be done
moovida: udig right now doesn't go through tests
moovida: you knwo Jody
jgarnett: moovida / silli - you are correct that we mostly write programs; so this is an area where we need your help and guidence - please be patient with both jesse and myself (we will learn!)
moovida: Jody, that is no attack to you or Jesse
moovida: that is clear I hope
* moovida wants to be sure
silli: no problem, it is just to tell you what we hope from the codesprint
jgarnett: moovida from eclipse I can run tests; but you are correct that we need the tests to be a bit faster or people will not run them.
moovida: I think right now too much knowledge lies in just you two
moovida: and you need help to keep things going
moovida: but we need guidance
jgarnett: moovida you are clear; I just needed to be clear as well; and also excited to make things better as a group
moovida: good
silli: yes!
moovida: I just feel that this could be a bit to much for an IRC sprint
moovida: some of us have language probems
moovida: and I am afraid that we start rushing in slightly diffreent directions
jgarnett: hrm
moovida: That is why I need to have clear ideas before we start
jgarnett: I am happy with almost anything
moovida: to be 100% of help
jgarnett: however I do ask that we decide up front what we want to accomplish
jgarnett: so we do not end up tired and exhausted at the end of the sprint
moovida: agreed
jgarnett: so if we can sort out what you would like to cover - I am open to doing that
jgarnett: it sounds like ... if I just go off experience thus far we have a couple showstoppers
jgarnett: the database import wizards; the create feature type dialog; etc...
silli: probably walkthrough are a good starting point
jgarnett: the big one (the style editor not working) has been fixed a couple months ago - and I still do not know who fixed it
silli: but we should decide how to start with them
moovida: best would for sure to follow the walkthroughs
silli: these are all thing to try
moovida: and in parallel keep in mind some sill bugs
silli: and report to the developers
jgarnett: I would like to have one of us try the walkthrough before the code sprint starts; so we have a couple bugs we know are important for those that want to just program away and not "test"
moovida: sorry Silli, meant nasty bugs :)
moovida: that is a good idea Jody
jgarnett: what kind of nasty bugs are you thinking of?
silli: :) I am available but I need a udig version for mac or/and linux
moovida: if we had a linux version or mac, Silvia would already have :)
jgarnett: um
silli: of the trunk?
moovida: I hoped in bullens builds
jgarnett: the zip I made of 1.2 should work on linux
silli: ah
moovida: I will try to make that in the next days, but I will need Jesse
jgarnett: I think we would just need to unzip a jre in there or something
moovida: where is a linux version?
jgarnett: I think I can make one here right now if you want; I have the rcp_delta pack
jgarnett: I just have no ability to test the thing
jgarnett: let me try now ...
jgarnett: after all what harm can that do?
moovida: :D
moovida: keep my fingers crossed
jgarnett: um I am just opening the udig.product and exporting it for multiple platforms
jgarnett: jesse's fancy build script does something similar - this is the old fashioned way
jgarnett: ah ha! I am learning something
jgarnett: in eclipse 3.4.1 the delta pack must be unzipped into your eclipse
jgarnett: just having it in "dropins" is not good enough
jgarnett: trying again
moovida: :) okky
jgarnett: in anycase I will have fun trying this
jgarnett: is there anything else we can do?
jgarnett: you noticed on the email list that there is a lot of demand for new features
jgarnett: (and I have my own ideas as well)
jgarnett: but I think for this one we are going to have to be strong and resist
moovida: I think we will be quite some developers at the sprint
jgarnett: I am going to invite the developers at the training course here to attend
jgarnett: and I have a couple people form LISAsoft who are interested.
moovida: some quick wow-effect things should be done,I think
moovida: wow, that is nice
jgarnett: udig trunk has so many wow things
moovida: :D
jgarnett: I just found the raster symbolizer editors today
silli: wow! I would see them
silli: :)
jgarnett: they have histograms as you adjust the gamma value
jgarnett: it is crazy
jgarnett: and you may of already tried the tiled rendering? You can turn it on from a preference page
jgarnett: in anycase I do not think we need to worry about "wow"
jgarnett: we can worry about "work"
moovida: I read about it in the list
moovida: lol
moovida: yes
moovida: ok, let's start with walkthrough on your build
moovida: and some feedback in mailinglist
moovida: so we start to get organised
jgarnett: silli; if you do notice things in the walkthrough that are stupid; or if I missed something obvious that you do all the time
silli: or we can put them on the wiki
jgarnett: please share
silli: ok! I will do that
jgarnett: do we have a good wiki page yet?
moovida: yes, let's try to extend the walkthrough with a nice analysis case
jgarnett: I am mostly wanting something that we can all take notes on during the code sprint
jgarnett: or a google doc would do it
silli: don't know what you mean for good
jgarnett: thinking
moovida: yes, I am also looking for something
jgarnett: a wiki page which we all have the ability to write to I guess
silli: ok
moovida: the wiki page of the sprint... I currently don't understand very well
moovida: I get lost in it
silli: so I will start with the walkthroug
moovida: but yes, I think only a wiki page can do that
silli: and report bugs for both udig and walkthroug
silli: and from the list the developers choose what to work on
silli: ?
silli: could that be possible?
moovida: I guess yes
moovida: Jody, are you aware of big bugs that have to be fixed?
moovida: style?
moovida: or deiting?
moovida: (editing)
silli: this is the first step to fix things I already know, for new features I really don't know how to do
moovida: how do you mean that Silli
moovida: to report the bugs you already found?
silli: tiling and so on...
silli: no!
moovida: ah, to try new features?
silli: i will do the walkthroug but... yes this!
jgarnett: back
jgarnett: http://udig.refractions.net/confluence/display/HACK/Code+Sprint+Jan+2009
moovida: nice
moovida: and we can start to populate it from now on
moovida: good
silli: good!
silli: so I will try your udig version in linux and then I can start
moovida: how is your build doing Jody?
-->| jgarnett1 (n=Jody@202.71.138.81) has joined #udig
jgarnett1: editing in some cases is better then on 1.1.x - the editing tools were first fixed on trunk and then backported
jgarnett1: back ... sorry I had to pay for internet at the hotel again
moovida: you are at a hotel?
jgarnett1: so those two bugs are the only big ones I know about
jgarnett1: I am at a hotel
moovida: where is the course
moovida: I thought you were at home, sorry
moovida: :)
jgarnett1: in Mumbia
moovida: are you in Australia?
jgarnett1: India this week doing a training course
jgarnett1: so I am closer to you
moovida: :)
moovida: nice
moovida: you are a vagabond
moovida: always around the world :)
jgarnett1: I must move while I can; before I have kids :-P
moovida: :D
jgarnett1: besides the world is a wonderful place ... explore
silli: :)
moovida: next year I come to visit you :)
silli: next year is 2010?
silli: :P
moovida: argh, this year :)
moovida: I will travel half the globe only for your berry pancakes
silli: cinnamon rolls...
jgarnett1: well come to foss4g
jgarnett1: and I will make you berry pancakes
jgarnett1: (allthough blueberries cost more here since they have no water!)
silli: gnam!
moovida: that wil then be part 2 of the sprint
moovida: looking in the eyeballs
jgarnett1: I have taken the deta pack out of drop ins; and dumped it into my eclipse
jgarnett1: and am going to try another release
moovida: ok
jgarnett1: this time I will just try and release linux version
jgarnett1: moovida I missed some of the conversation
jgarnett1: can I ask you to post these logs to the udig blog feed when we are done?
jgarnett1: and if you have anything to add to that code sprint page please go ahead
moovida: yes, I think I got the logging right this time
moovida: yup, great
jgarnett1: I am waiting for my machine to build stuff; I must say that uDig trunk is doing in much better shape these days - you can really see how much work has been put into it in the last 6 months.
jgarnett1: the new features need to be intergrated a little more smoothly
jgarnett1: but that will be easier to think through when we can show the new stuff to silli
jgarnett1: and she can tell us where to put it :-)
moovida: :D I bet she will
jgarnett1: how is your work at hydrologis going
jgarnett1: any fun and exciting new ideas?
silli: ok... :)
moovida: we pushed a lot a bigger model that should be done in the next months
moovida: and will be released
moovida: and lots of pushing of the scripting language
moovida: which now works also in standalone mode
jgarnett1: nice
moovida: for serverside analysis
moovida: we are getting there
moovida: still we are trying to thing about how to better integrate with udig
moovida: to have a better merge
moovida: so users do not get confused
jgarnett1: I am finding the upgrade to Eclipse 3.4.1 hard in a lots of little ways
jgarnett1: it keeps wanting me to document what "configuration" of java is expected
jgarnett1: in the MANIFEST.MF file
jgarnett1: and when ever I do that; JAI does not work
moovida: didn't harry fix them all?
moovida: oh
jgarnett1: I am not sure; what was he trying to do?
moovida: at some point I saw lost of commits
moovida: related to fix the java version in the manifests
jgarnett1: trying linux export again ...
jgarnett1: ... failed.
moovida: I think it was Harry, but could be also someone else
moovida: ARGH...
jgarnett1: Problems during export
jgarnett1: Unable to find plug-in: org.eclipse.equinox.launcher.gtk.linux.x86_1.0.101.R34x_v20080805. Please check the error log for more details.
jgarnett1: interesting
moovida: and I bet you have it there
jgarnett1: going to go see if that plugin exists in the delta pack
jgarnett1: actually I do not have it
jgarnett1: I am going to go download the delta pack again
silli: hei all, I have to go now, I am sorry
silli: ciao to all!!!
moovida: ciao Silli
jgarnett1: thanks for dropping in
jgarnett1: I see it in the delta pack - it is a folder rather than a jar
moovida: that shouldn't be a problem
jgarnett1: yeah; setting up eclipse properly is sure fiddley
moovida: yes :(
jgarnett1: okay still failed on macosx as well as linux
jgarnett1: I am starting a new workspace
jgarnett1: and will try releasing a "hello world" application
jgarnett1: in order to test if my eclipse env works
jgarnett1: if that fails I will start setting up a new one; no udig stuff just eclipse
jgarnett1: fun fun
moovida: :) fun?
moovida: funky Jody
moovida: Jody, I have to go for a couple of hours
moovida: will be back afterwards
moovida: will you be online for a bit?
jgarnett1: I will be asleep
jgarnett1: indeed I should sleep now
jgarnett1: but I am woried about my eclipse install
moovida: ups
jgarnett1: (since I have students trying to use it tomorrow)
moovida: you sayd dinner, not lunch
jgarnett1: can you post the earlier chat about the code sprint please?
jgarnett1: (when you get a chance)
jgarnett1: yeah it is midnight here
moovida: I am a bit confused today :)
jgarnett1: oh: happy new year!
moovida: yeah man, happy new year to you also!!
moovida: I'm checking now the logs
jgarnett1: I was able to export out a "hello world" application for linux
jgarnett1: so there is something missing from the udig configuration (sigh)
moovida: I don't see the logs in the folder they should be
moovida: :(
moovida: the global loggin is not enough
moovida: I hate this zill
moovida: zilla
jgarnett1: hrm
jgarnett1: well I have some stuff I can post; I just missed a bit
jgarnett1: (using pydin myself)
moovida: let me first try some things
moovida: grrr
moovida: I didn't know that I had to check the channelalso
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